KOS (Kill On Sight) Discussion

Nuri · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:33 am Post subject: KOS (Kill On Sight) Discussion

One of the topics that we were not able to fully discuss at the first Story Arc Meeting was KOS (Kill On Sight). We did decide that on where it should apply, but there were many other issues left unresolved.

It was suggested we open a thread just for continuing the discussion prior to the follow up meeting and so that's what we have here.

Just for information purposes, we did decide the following at the first meeting:
Where should the KOS be in effect?
Decision: KOS applies in Nocturnus at agreed upon RP events. If parties involved leave those areas Common Sense should dictate how to handle matters.

For more information please see the notes from the first meeting: Recap of Story Arc Meeting (11/15/06)

Or better, see the list of rules for the Story Arc: Nocturnus Story Arc Rules

I now open the floor to those interested. Play nice. smile

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xyryn · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:43 am Post subject:

I believe the decision was that the KOS pertains to Nocturnus at all times and to selected RP events outside of Nocturnus. S&V is one where it is OK to persue the KOS. Other events, such as the Ryloth Ryl Den have sufficient non-community attendees that a KOS attack would be disruptive.

MERCS has basically set the standard, due to experience, on this aspect of the topic. They have roleplay bounties that they do not persue at certain events due to the potential disruption of either IC or OOC play of non-affiliated players.
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Isleh · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:39 am Post subject:

I have no doubt that this topic was brought up by Temple's KOS order for Atella. Iafeu suggested that the KOS should last seven days, I disagree.

Consider Isleh's case.

She is labeled as a Traitor to the Empire now. I suspect that members of MERCS wouldn't be happy to see her either. So I have been playing for a few weeks now that I'm KOS by any Imperial or MERCS player.

So, it's been alot longer than 7 days. Does this mean that I'm long overdue to put the disguise away and just walk around Nocturnus as myself?

The occupation of Nocturnus was never in my plans at the beginning of this arc. If you read back, I talked of a joint MERCS, NRC raid against a weapon facility in Nocturnus run by Jabba.

Because things did not go as I expected them, should I ask MERCS to forget about it after 7 days?

My conclusion to both questions? No.

I've RP'ed myself into this mess. I should RP myself out of it and not wait for a timer to expire. If I find the situation unbearable, I will talk to the other players involved. See if some RP conclusion can be reached or see if a little RP history can be rewritten.

Forgetting about some events is an option. Not my prefered one, but still an option. It has also been the only option in some cases.

Griven · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:41 am Post subject:

KOS should be evaluated on a case by case basis. I think that circumstances are far too varying to be able to make a black and white decision about it.

Attela, for example. Her actions were completely within the bounds of RP as far as I know it, even though they did ruffle the feathers of others. Because of that, she had a KOS put on her. Should this last for all time? I don't think so, because it wasn't central to any major events such as Isleh's actions.

In Attela's case, I think that the actual KOS should last for about a week. After that, just RP your dislike rather than gunning her down every chance you get. We're a small community, and if I were to gun someone down every chance I saw them, I'll bet that their fun in this game would be ruined real fast.

In Isleh's case, her actions were central to a very large plotline. Because of that, the KOS order (which is more likely to be capture on sight than anything else) would have to stand for as long as she RPed out of it. If things were to revert back to normal, it could possibly throw a LOT of things off.

So when placing a KOS and deciding how long it will last, ask yourself this: What will having a KOS order affect? What effect will it have to turn off the KOS after a certain time?

For Attela, having a KOS order will affect her ability to RP with the Temple. Turning it off won't effect anything too drastic as far as I can tell.

For Isleh, having a KOS order affects her ability to be within the vicinity of the MERCS and their allies. Turning it off would lessen the impact of the story and immersion.
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Nuri · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:41 am Post subject:

Kuri · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:08 am Post subject:

I am writing this post with the intention of providing answers to questions which I anticipate players may have regarding Xyryn's KOS order on Attela. I will include facts which should sufficiently establish that Attela provided to Iafeu while IC, information which she received OOC and that, in consideration of how that information has been utilized in the current Nocturnus arc, she has negated a considerable amount of time and effort which had been applied to the development of roleplay for our guild. I have conferred with Xyryn and Isleh and I have quoted them with permission.

Why did Xyryn order a KOS on Attela?

Xyryn's order for KOS on Attela was a last straw response to Attela's provision of OOC information to Iafeu while IC, following repeated attempts to curb Attela's grandstanding and metagaming while she was a member of Temple.

What OOC information did Attela provide to Iafeu?

Attela provided Iafeu with a list of all active Temple member names. Rasir was on the list, however, Attela and Rasir had never met IC. She has only spoken with him OOC and in guildchat.

Attela provided Iafeu with the primary (& much preferred) proposed location for the Monestery. Considering that the Monestery has not been incorporated into Temple roleplay, there is no valid information regarding the Monestery which Iafeu or Nyvveck could utilize in the current arc. The only thing Attela has accomplished by sharing this information with Iafeu is that she has hampered our ability to use it in the future roleplay for our guild.

Iafeu provided this information to Nyvveck. I do not know if Iafeu understood that Attela had received this information out of character.

What did Nyvveck do with this information?

Nyvveck did not know that the information was gained by Attela while OOC. He used it to provide some of the motivation for his next actions against Xyryn and Temple in the current arc.

Can you prove that the primary Monestery location was OOC information?

Our first guild meeting at the primary Monestery location was the night after the Nocturnus takeover. Calling it a meeting is using the term rather loosely. Only a few members were able to attend and I did not keep a log of it. It was completely OOC. Our second meeting (actually a reschedule of the first meeting) at the primary Monestery location was the following night and was also OOC. Here are some quotes from my log of that meeting which should be sufficient to establish that the meeting and discussion of the Monestery were both OOC, without sharing any of our discussion pertinent to the current arc.

(This is Xyryn's opening statement at the second meeting)
[Chat] 17:16:33 [GroupChat] xyryn: I have spoken with Novall, OOC.

(This statement indicates the Monestery had not been incorporated in our rp)
[Chat] 18:40:05 [GroupChat] xyryn: so, staging areas are needed, and this place and the other candidate place for the Monastery will not be used for the next weeks until we have the Nocturnus situation handled.

(This statement ended the second meeting and supports that the meeting was OOC)
[Chat] 18:40:32 [GroupChat] isleh-lin: I would like to handle the rest of this in RP if possible. I mean, that's why I went through all this trouble to set this up. This meeting though was necessary to get everyone on the same page.

What is the impact of this disclosure of OOC information upon the Temple of the Goddess guild?

The Monestery is an rp tool for Temple members which is in development. Isleh had secured temporary access to the location and was in the process of gaining agreement with the owners for our long-term access. Xyryn and Cailen had begun planning guild activities which would occur at the Monestery. I had begun work on writing backstory and questing to introduce the Monestery into our roleplay.

There is a secondary location candidate. Please note that the secondary location in no way compares to the primary location and would take months of development and a significant credit investment to bring it to the same usable state as our preferred location which was essentially being given to us in an already developed state. Additionally, Attela knows of the secondary location as well.

There is no recourse for the secrecy of the candidate locations for the Monestery. There is no means of recovering the time and effort which went into planning the Monestery concept, or securing permission to use our preferred location. At this time, we have no additional candidate locations which Attela does not know about. To expect community members who were provided the information via Attela's metagaming to "forget" it constitutes a breach of character continuity which we can not in good conscience consider. This loss represents a significant setback in the development of future roleplay for our guild.

Are there any established guidelines for what to do when one player's poor roleplay practices cause significant damage to the work others have invested in their guild and the community?

Neither the game nor our community guildlines provide for any consequences for Attela's actions. Considering the ease with which Attela has shown willingness to claim to be in or out of character, as might suit her own purposes at any given moment, some of us in Temple do not believe that being marked for KOS under the established guidelines for a week will change her behavior (when confronted, one could simply say that one is OOC). As a result, some of us will refuse to roleplay with her going forward.

Iafeu · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:54 am Post subject:

Im reguards to the information attela provided me. I was inaware it was recieved though ooc channels rather than ic. I also offered to have it conviently disappear from my datapad when I told Isleh about this. I was under the impression it was all recieved through legitimate ic channels and I am in NO HURRY to ruin anyones hard work in any ic or ooc area.

I just wanted to make that clear. I even contacted Isleh ooc and told her if it was an issue, the information would strangly disappear from my datapad but she told me she "did not care" and "to use it if i had gained it legitimatly" which at the time, I though it was all gained through ic sources.
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Salocin · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:58 am Post subject:

My rule, and I have to have this rule, is that if I am given information IC, I assume that it was recieved IC. If I were to thoroughly look back and make sure any and all information I recieve was gained IC, I would have no time to do things that I enjoy in the game...I'd spend all my time asking people where they learned what they did.

I'd just like to make that clear, as it applies not only to this, but all future information I'll be given.

As to what I did with the information...I asked Xyryn a few questions, then did nothing. After enduring a barrage of insults from Nurian and Rinna, Nyvveck decided that all of Nocturnus (and everyone associated with it) does not deserve his protection or attention.
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Rinna · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject:

xyryn · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject:

Salocin, we have accepted that you have the information, as modified in our discussions. As Kuri stated, we cannot in good conscience ask you to take back your roleplay. What you now have is IC.

We have to accept information with the assumption that it is IC. Too much of our gaming is based on information, and we don't have the time to verify our sources. I have tried to do that in past arcs, and it is extremely time consuming.
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Salocin · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:07 pm Post subject:

Rinna · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject:

Nisoa · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:55 pm Post subject:

/enters thread derail mode

Just so you all know, you won't have the little black Bothan to kick around .. for awhile anyway ..

But onto the point.

If anybody was insulting anybody, it was me. Yes, I admit it. But then, 'eh, nobody has ever listened to me anyway.
If anybody would like I will post my entire log of the scene starting from the time I got to the hospital until I left.

The only person which got insulted was Adun, and all of that by me.

/derail mode off .. returning to normal bit*h mode

Now back on topic .....
KOS means just that, it is mainly used in one GUILD against another, not everybody against one person.
Yes Rinna, I can see your point about the K meaning kill, which it does, but it does not mean a permadeath. It just means if you see a member of the opposite guild, or in this case, person, you beat them down until they have to clone. Once thats done the kill is done until they are seen again.
Now I know alot of people that would do just that and move on, yet I also know people that will do it and have a couple of people at various respawn points to do it over and over and over ... But thats cheap so /shrug

Since we are trying to act like civilized beings, then yes, I agree a time limit should be placed and both parties agree to it.
If the one to be beat down doesn't log on during that time, so be it, the time limit is met so it's done and over.

+STEALTH+
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xyryn · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject:

As far as the KOS going indefinitely, that was amended before the OOC Schola. So that is a moot point. (2nd meaning: Moot = without legal standing.)

Until Nyvveck spoke with Attela, she was not worried about the KOS. When I logged in Wednesday, an hour befoe Schola, she was whining in NocChat about not being able to get into Temple...and for some reason, not being able to enter Nisoa's house.

We usually have at least one person in the Temple most evenings. What was Attela trying to do, prove that she could thumb her nose at the KOS?
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Nisoa · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: