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Cymrych

Last Night - My Frustrations

Last night some of you spoke to me about the "hot water" I said I stepped into yesterday on the SOE forum.

For those interested here is the thread I started in the senate

Here is a thread in the Events Forum in which you can respond to if you would like to add comments or ideas.
Sai'nu

Lona already PMed me this morning and I tried to collect my thoughts and the concerns of others to put up.  Hope it helps, Cym.
Iago

I want to point out that discussion is something Senators should support, and not outright throw a veto on, but that's not the issue, so I'll keep my yap shut.

If Ezar's against it, he can effectively explain his stance without continually attempting to shut down the discussion with "Hell no"s and "no way"s.
Cymrych

Iago wrote:
I want to point out that discussion is something Senators should support, and not outright throw a veto on, but that's not the issue, so I'll keep my yap shut.

If Ezar's against it, he can effectively explain his stance without continually attempting to shut down the discussion with "Hell no"s and "no way"s.


I think I let him get to me with that represent my community 100% thing.  Me being a BH and all...was getting personal to me...

I had to step back, breathe, and relax, and hope I am drawing attention to the issue and SOE will look into this.
Sai'nu

/nod  

Pretty much Lona told me.  If the guy won't offer an alternative or work around for the problem then he's not taking into account the bigger picture.  But he is partially right in that if not carefully thought out the tools we try to come up with to prevent Griefing will actually cause it too.
Dew

Yup, most of what Bounty Hunters do is considered greifing by alot of people smile
Nallu Koras

I don’t support any type of tool that can be used for counter-griefing. Those were just suggestions from Moya, and she also stated that she doesn’t want a tool that can be abused.

I’m glad that Cym has brought up this concern in the Senate forums and being the focus of our voice. If you guys have the time, please make a comment or offer suggestions in that thread in the Events forum. We should support Cym so we can make a positive impact in the Events community.
Cymrych

Thanks for the support guys!

eek I think my PM box tripled in size today on the SOE boards.

Some very good ideas are being discussed now.
Meh

BH'ing outside of RP events (Actually, make that all events and quests... maybe MOB runs. Nobody likes dying at a non-rp event either.) is by no means greifing. If someone takes the time to follow you, remaining mostly unnoticed while they do it, and strike you down after 2 hours of stalking, would you call that greifing?

No. They accomplished their task after alot of hard work. Therefore, the people who call you greifers or "BH noobs" are probably whiny 10-year olds who would use hacks for SWG if they could find them.
Invictus

I cannot see the SOE boards from work but from  what i cather on the immediate post above is this:

If you're going to allow yourself to get into a situation to get a bounty on your head, and don't want that affecting other areas of your RP/Gameplay, take the time to get it cleared.

I'll read the threads when i get home.
Sai'nu

Well, one crux is that people think, probably rightfully so, that if a player made "bubble" were added that BH's wouldn't be able to touch their bounties and it could turn into a misuse of another tool.  

But rather than come up with a solution to the proposed problem it was a flat out "No" response to it.   The "bubble" could work as long as all the exceptions we're worked into it.

*Boba Fett pop up saying to be "tactful" and get the job done fast since there appears to be an event going on.  With an immediate porting out of the Event area once the bounty is complete.  

Put that in and it becomes less of a problem for BHers that may come, complete the bounty, then proceed to disrupt the Event further.  It also keeps people that will try to run to an event to avoid a bounty as a clear target.

I think that is one of the big issues people are objectionable about.  However, there are a lot of other fish to consider with a tool that powerful.  It has been a heated argument though.  I think with some misinterpretations along the way as well.  Senators forgetting their all on the same side and such.
Dew

Sai'nu wrote:
*Boba Fett pop up saying to be "tactful" and get the job done fast since there appears to be an event going on.  With an immediate porting out of the Event area once the bounty is complete.  

Put that in and it becomes less of a problem for BHers that my come, complete the bounty, then proceed to disrupt the Event further.  It also keeps people that will try to run to an event to avoid a bounty as a clear target.


I think this is sort of silly that its getting once again lumped on BHers. If a BHer comes in, kills his mark and then leaves, then what is the issue? None.

If he comes, kills his mark, then starts harrassing people, well then it isn't a BHer issue anymore, its a CSR issue, and would be dealt with like any other disturbance of this nature.

Allowing bubbles is just one more way of disjointing the already fragile little communties we have around, what if the BHer killed his mark, decided to stay and join the event? Perhaps he turned out to be a great asset to the event and a welcome newcomer?

Anyways.... dont make this about game mechanics, make this about asshats that like to harrass and mess up events.
Iago

Dew wrote:
Sai'nu wrote:
*Boba Fett pop up saying to be "tactful" and get the job done fast since there appears to be an event going on.  With an immediate porting out of the Event area once the bounty is complete.  

Put that in and it becomes less of a problem for BHers that my come, complete the bounty, then proceed to disrupt the Event further.  It also keeps people that will try to run to an event to avoid a bounty as a clear target.


I think this is sort of silly that its getting once again lumped on BHers. If a BHer comes in, kills his mark and then leaves, then what is the issue? None.


It's not being lumped on BHers, though.  The first example was a commando spamming attacks with a lava cannon.  The Bhers are the ones putting up the opposition, so it's become a them-vs-us discussion, instead of "Let's work on a solution together."  Mostly, the them-vs-us has come from how the BH senator has treated the situation, from what I've read (all of the threads above).  He's not being very senatorial, imo.
Sai'nu

/nod

The response, or compromise, I've offered is just out there in response to BH objections.   Your right, Dew, it is about coming up with a solution together.  

What the "bubble" does is allow players to control their events without the worry of disruption after a lot of work goes into it.  

Can you imagine how much happier a few players would've been without disruptions?   In this case the bubble could work; as long as we come up with possible ways of making it work without disrupting other game mechanics. That way we can get at the meat of it.  Dealing with the asshats.
Dew

Even a commando spamming Lava attacks still falls under the heading of CSR domain, least in my thinking. If you ask the person to stop doing something, and they refuse you take it to the CSRs.

I would never agree with any sort of system that stopped another player from doing what they wanted. The chances for that being abused are just as great as a 10 year old with a Lava Cannon.

Again, the bubble would limit access to new people who wanted to be apart of what you are doing, although, maybe that is what people here want?
Cymrych

I made it clear that I did not want to limit "hunting" for BH's, or even interfere with PvP, GCW, etc...and add an exploit in the process.  I may have it more us vs. them with Ezar, as I took it personal at first.  I tried to retify that.

I was not focused on BH's as greifers, and I think it got miscontrued as we started the conversation.  Since then, Ezar has provided some positive feedback and added to ideas in order to find some resolve on this matter.

Yes Dew, CSR's realm should cover this, but arguements are timeframe...during an event, the CSR's usually do not show up in time to do anything...staffing and availability to thier tons of reports are issues there.  It would not be fair to prioritize events over other issues either.

There are some good discussions going on in order to find something that will work.  SOE is looking at it as a serious issue now.

So I hope we find some resolve and make progress with this.
Dew

I mean, I could see making structures that could be placed for an Event set as private, invite only, or something like that. But the average player shouldn't have the power to block, ban, remove or whatever any other player, thats all I was getting at.

The most I would go for would be something like the City Militia idea, were "bouncers" could enable some sort of PvP system, but even that could be abused.
Sai'nu

Yet another solution to putting it in is an Opt-in/Opt-out implementation.

The Opt-in is the extreme example being used I think.  The Opt-out just puts in a tool that would allow for the "bubble" but let the Event organizers immediately kick/port out trouble makers.

In the end I've got a feeling this won't happen anyway.  But it is an option to be discussed.  All in all though I think the thread is generating the desired affect, Cym.   Hopefully Pex and gang give it a day or two more and throw in some more "We could do this but this thing here isn't going to happen..."  statements.  

I do think everyone is focused on finding a solution to the immediate handling of griefers though.  At least that's what I'm getting out of it.  People are asking for ways to control the events more so that the environment isn't disrupted then nothing can be done about it until long after the fact by a CSR/GM that won't be able to immediately be handy.  But the ticketing system still is an option out there.
bishopbosco

Hey Cym,

Its a subject that has to be adressed.  It is just unfortunate that many folks, Senators included, simply do not understand the level of greifing that happen at these types of events.

Personally I have issues with our BH senator, as he has a tendancy to automatically say no to things without thinking them through.  i know he has the support fo the BH's, as they want no impediments to their hunts, but such an intractable position will onlty lead many of us to not support his initiatives when they come up, regardless of how well meaning they may be.

There are no easy answer to this issue.  At least the Devs made it clear they did not want to make it part of the Warden program.  i personally want a devcie that an be set up that essentially makes a mini instance where the event takes place.

To avoid reverse greifing so BH's and PvP will not be effected you simply code the device so that peopl who are special forces or have an active bounty cannot enter the Event Instance until those are cleared.
bishopbosco

Dew wrote:
I mean, I could see making structures that could be placed for an Event set as private, invite only, or something like that. But the average player shouldn't have the power to block, ban, remove or whatever any other player, thats all I was getting at.

The most I would go for would be something like the City Militia idea, were "bouncers" could enable some sort of PvP system, but even that could be abused.


Sort of like the old Militia Tef where if a citizen was atatcked within city limits by someone (ie a BH) then the militia was able to attack the BH.  In the old days that was one of the few deterents to same faction hunting.
Dew

bishopbosco wrote:

Sort of like the old Militia Tef where if a citizen was atatcked within city limits by someone (ie a BH) then the militia was able to attack the BH.  In the old days that was one of the few deterents to same faction hunting.


Dunno that it helped same faction hunting much, but it just made logical sense, and gave cities a little more purpose, a safe haven for citizens. This coming from a Bounty Hunter that spent alot of time on the borders of Thune smile
Cymrych

This being an RP community, can I ask something?

Are you happy about the RP Senator and how he has representated you on this?

Probably said to much with that, but just curious.

And thanks for the support Bosco...both here, and in the Senate!
Sai'nu

Eh, I'm trying to give Kupyilabe the benefit of the doubt myself.  I think, again, the biggest problem is that a lot of opposers aren't looking at ways to make the tentative solution work.   Rather they're nixing the idea altogether and still leaving us with things that don't solve what we're trying to find work arounds for there.

The bubble example is what most are fighting about after all.  Yes, it could be used to grief if the idea alone were implemented without fleshing out ways to make it work.  But it's always been easier to shoot something down.  

I still think Lona's scaley boots are proving hard to fill though in my opinion (On Kupy's part).   cool
Cymrych

Sai'nu wrote:
I still think Lona's scaley boots are proving hard to fill though in my opinion.   cool


INDEED!!

Events & RP are sperate, and what we are discussing focuses more on events than RP, but at the same time...maybe just me...I need to leave it alone.  Said to much already I guess.
Dew

Sai'nu wrote:
Eh, I'm trying to give Kupyilabe the benefit of the doubt myself.  I think, again, the biggest problem is that a lot of opposers aren't looking at ways to make the tentative solution work.   Rather they're nixing the idea altogether and still leaving us with things that don't solve what we're trying to find work arounds for there.

The bubble example is what most are fighting about after all.  Yes, it could be used to grief if the idea alone were implemented without fleshing out ways to make it work.  But it's always been easier to shoot something down.  

I still think Lona's scaley boots are proving hard to fill though in my opinion (On Kupy's part).   cool


This is an MMO, living in a bubble might be better suited for a single player game.
Sai'nu

Cymrych wrote:
Sai'nu wrote:
I still think Lona's scaley boots are proving hard to fill though in my opinion.   cool


INDEED!!

Events & RP are sperate, and what we are discussing focuses more on events than RP, but at the same time...maybe just me...I need to leave it alone.  Said to much already I guess.


True.  But it's a bit of an umbrella issue too.

As far as anything else goes.  The ideas are legitimate by all parties so far as  the Pros and Cons.  The only thing that remains the same is that if there isn't any flexibility with implementing something that works; nothing will change and you'll just continue to have the asshats screwing things up.
Dew

When is the last time the GC community had someone screw up an RP event, I mean besides someone trying to set up a PvE run during it?
Sai'nu

The issue isn't about the GC community.  These things happen on other servers at other events as well.  That's the entire reason the tool is being discussed on the Official forums.    sly wink
Cymrych

Sai'nu wrote:
The issue isn't about the GC community.  These things happen on other servers at other events as well.  That's the entire reason the tool is being discussed on the Official forums.    sly wink


My SOE PM box has quadroupled the last few days...it is an issue for a lot of people...
Sai'nu

I don't doubt it.  cool
Dew

Sai'nu wrote:
The issue isn't about the GC community.  These things happen on other servers at other events as well.  That's the entire reason the tool is being discussed on the Official forums.    sly wink


Oh, well in that case, they dont need any fix, cuz we dont have an issue.
Sai'nu

Yes, but anything that comes out of this will be tools we can use on Gorath as well.  Or where ever else our players happen to be playing in SWG.  As far as how we treat events I don't think we've had a problem with disrupting them in a griefing way at our Events anytime recently.  But in that way we're kind of the exception to the rule it would seem.
Dew

I see, people just like talking about stuff, got ya.

How bout they add some new content, then people will be less bored and then not bother events because they are busy exploring Hoth.
Cymrych

Dew wrote:
I see, people just like talking about stuff, got ya.

How bout they add some new content, then people will be less bored and then not bother events because they are busy exploring Hoth.


PM a different senator on that one...
Sai'nu

Cymrych wrote:
Dew wrote:
I see, people just like talking about stuff, got ya.

How bout they add some new content, then people will be less bored and then not bother events because they are busy exploring Hoth.


PM a different senator on that one...


laughing

I just got a mental picture of someone asking for a Collection to get access to an Event Instance for the Hoth Battlefield.

Think I've been thread browsing too much today.
Dew

I gave up PMing anyone on the official forums back before the Combat Revamp, I realized that this is a game, it is what it is, and if they wanna add something cool they will. If I want to add something cool, I should make my own MMO. I only pay 14.99 a month wink
Nallu Koras

That thread that Cym started on the Events forum is getting positive feedback. Pex monitors that forum well.

I feel that this issue with griefers affect more than just role players. There are griefers at PvP, PvE and space events as well. Cym got complaints about it and did what he should by bringing up our concern on the Events forum and the Senate forum.

The Griefers vs Event Planner angle will also garner support, as well as the Griefers vs Role Players angle. I pointed people to at least more than one of the discussions in the RP and the Events forum.

I've already contributed to the one in the RP boards, until it went off topic.
Invictus

Dew wrote:
I see, people just like talking about stuff, got ya.

How bout they add some new content, then people will be less bored and then not bother events because they are busy exploring Hoth.


there's enough new content to keep everyone going now for a good few months. any more and we'll be too overwhelmed.
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